Tycho Luijten, Founder of Dapper, a Growth Agency, joins our host, Camela Thompson, in this episode of the Revenue Marketing Report. Tycho shares insights into why it’s important to try out ChatGPT, what works and what doesn’t in generative AI, and what happens in B2C marketing that he would like to see happen more often in B2B.
Tycho is the founder of a growth marketing agency that’s been around for three and a half years. In that time span, the company has experienced rapid growth. It specializes in B2B marketing and the whole team consists of 20 professionals. Tycho asserts that the biggest bottleneck he has to deal with is finding the right talent to execute the work. However, he goes on to add, that’s always a good problem to have.
ChatGPT has been the buzz-log lately. Have you tried it?
A lot of marketers are being asked to do more with less. It’s a phrase I’ve heard throughout my career, no matter how good the economy was doing. One of the temptations I’ve seen lately is to cut down our costs on the content side and leverage AI and automation. At the beginning of this chat, Tycho explained why he uses ChatGPT.
“One of our core values is innovation. We always try to be one step ahead. We believe that’s the reason why big companies work with a small Dutch company like ours. Because we are always one step ahead in terms of tools and technology growth frameworks. Of course, generative AI is something we need to continuously explore. My colleagues and I do explore the applications continuously. So, yeah, short answer, yes, we do use it.”
What works and what doesn’t work when using ChatGPT?
Tycho went on to detail the various applications ChatGPT is and isn’t good for.
“What I’d like to say first is we can’t use this because that isn’t original content, right? And if you want to grab and keep the attention of your prospects, you need to say something new since the attention span of people is so short nowadays. If you’re not saying something that is really different and worthwhile for your prospects to read, then forget about it. That’s my first reaction. But then I also try to think about other big technological disruptions that heavily influence marketing. I realize that this is something that happens with every technology out there.
“A lot of people underestimated social media. A lot of companies at the dawn of social media said, we don’t need it, we are a B2B company. People are on social media to look at funny cat videos, memes, and stuff like that. It was the same with the internet and maybe the printing press a couple of hundred years ago. So right now I try not to use it for thought leadership content. I strongly believe that content is something that requires originality. I’ve tried a couple of times, but I simply cannot create content that I find worth publishing.
“However, if I write a long article, I do ask ChatGPT questions like, ‘hey, can you come up with ideas for splitting this article in short bites that I can share on Linkedin?’ That’s something that works very well. For instance, if we write an article for a client, we might ask, hey, rewrite this article! And if you give very, very specific prompts, then all of a sudden, you get an article that’s a much better tone of voice. Those types of things do work very well with ChatGPT.
“On the content creation side, definitely. And then I also think that is more on the demand generation side. Pushing new content, but I also think there are a lot of interesting developments around capturing demand. So not too long ago I saw a post by a marketer that found out a client came to them or at least an inbound lead that answered, how did you find us? Via ChatGPT! This is pretty crazy!
“A few weekends ago, I traveled to London with my girlfriend, just a weekend getaway. We were playing around with ChatGPT, asking it what we should do on a two-day trip to London, staying in Kensington. Then ChatGPT came up with 10 recommendations for fun things to do. Then, we asked what restaurants we should visit in this neighborhood. And it works as a marketing machine with the introduction of more advanced AI in Google and Bing. I feel that the next step will be optimizing your findability for these AI search entries. That is something that I think we are going to see a lot more in the future.”
That’s a great point! My wheels are turning! I can already see it happening, that just makes sense. ChatGPT is pulling from the content that’s already there. That tells me a couple of things. If you want to show up on ChatGPT, you should prioritize your content strategy. You should be creating the disruptive, cutting-edge things that people want to consume. And that should also lead to showing up in ChatGPT when people are asking questions related to your product. Tycho agrees.
“Yeah, I do think so. We are working with some assumptions here because we aren’t completely sure how the algorithm works and what sort of content the algorithm prioritizes. I am not an AI specialist, but what I know is the algorithm works as follows: what it does is after formulating one word, it tries to find another logical word. It kind of mimics a neural network, right?
“Therefore, it formulates word by word and that’s how you see it working. It doesn’t completely push out one full article. It goes bit by bit which is crazy! I think we need to very thoroughly understand this algorithm in order to understand how we are able to be found on it. If it is the same as Google or anything of the sort, it boils down to just answering questions as properly as possible.
“The days are long gone when you could repeat a certain keyword a hundred times in an article and then hide it behind images and put it at the right spots for it to be found. Right now, we just have to give a good answer to a question. And I feel that’s going to be very similar to all AI search engines.”
And the benefit of all this is you are getting feedback in real-time. So as it is presenting these things, people are helping it, yeah, that worked or no that didn’t. And here’s where it goes beyond Google and starts turning into something really interesting. However, that brings up a good point. I’ve used similar tools like Auto Credit and Grammarly, there are quite a few out there. So this isn’t new. I think I would say we still need to apply our own context and judgment when it comes to what we use, what we edit, and what we change. Tycho concurs.
“Yeah! I also think that if it can develop into something that can do that should signify the importance of understanding very well how it works. Even right now, I am not going to use it for my own thought leadership content. I will keep using it for different purposes and keep exploring the applications. Because at some point in 5 to 10 years from now, it will be able to generate new ideas and that moment is here. You don’t want to be that person who doesn’t understand what is going on. This is one of those groundbreaking technologies that will change so much. Right now, it isn’t perfect. But we do see its power and potential. To all marketers out there, even though I might not 100% agree with the complete uses of ChatGPT, keep up to date with it and ensure you know how to apply it.”
And if you can shave time off of what you’re doing by leveraging it in certain ways, then it’s worth it.
Let’s talk B2C vs. B2B. What trends do you see that bridge both?
Tycho discussed some of the things he sees happening in B2C that he wishes would happen more often in B2B.
“So where I think B2B marketers can learn a lot from B2C is that B2C marketers can think about the complete funnel, right? They don’t stop at a certain point. Their responsibility isn’t warming up an audience, and that’s it. Their responsibility is to show themselves to somebody for the first time and keep that person engaged. And when someone gets to that product page, doing everything else is possible. It’s possible to get that person to convert and buy your product/service.
“When we are talking about B2B, in the past 10 to 15 years, there has been this division of marketing and sales where marketing’s got very high qualified lead goals or sales qualified lead goals. They collect some contact details of people that aren’t actually interested in buying. They have these KPIs and then sales get the cap needed to close those deals. So what happened is with wrong KPIs, marketing was steering toward getting contact details. This is something I’ve been hearing a lot of lately.
“And B2C marketing is all about it. It takes you through the whole funnel. So if you’re doing it properly, I think in B2B marketing your revenue will be your KPI. Therefore, KPI is revenue and really creating a machine that creates inbound leads that actually makes it worthwhile for sales to spend their time and energy on.
“So we were helping a client that wanted us to run lead generation campaigns, classic, with white papers and ebooks on LinkedIn and Facebook. Gathering those contact details and then passing them to sales through HubSpot. I asked the client, can we please at least talk to the right people at the right companies If these leads are warm at all or should we change it around? I was trying to find an entrance to introduce demand gen and demand capture.
“However, the marketing director told me, no, you guys are doing a great job! Keep doing what you are doing, but sales, that’s a whole different department. You don’t need to talk with them. This isn’t a unique story. This is something that happens in almost every B2B company out there. And what happened afterward is after a couple of months of running these campaigns, I got introduced to a sales rep. I asked them, hey, what do you think of these leads coming in? He answered, leads, what leads? I didn’t see any leads coming from these campaigns!
“We started researching the situation and apparently an integration wasn’t made or wasn’t properly made between our campaigns and HubSpot. So what happened is none of these leads came true and we spent between $100,000 to $150,000 advertising budget on it.”
Historically, most B2B organizations are either product-led or sales-led, and the people who have embraced it found that sales-led absolutely works. But their problem is their mentality is we’re going to grow by brute force outreach and directly. What occurs in those organizations is that marketing is so severely undervalued that no matter what you do and what numbers you produce and what you tell them, you’re going to have a battle on your hands because they’re going to go with what the sales team is feeling rather than the data you’re producing.
For more expert interviews and advice, listen to the full Revenue Marketing Report episode at the top of the article or anywhere you podcast.