Amy Vosko, VP of Growth Marketing at Evisort, joins our host, Camela Thompson, Go-To-Market Thought Leader and B2B Insights Expert, in this episode of the Revenue Marketing Report. Amy shares how to set expectations clearly and create a roadmap for an employee’s exit.
Amy, welcome back to day two! We are going to be talking about managing in and managing out. Where do you want to start?
“You know what? Let’s start managing out and then we will talk about managing in.”
Yes. You start with a hard one. I like it. Well, let us talk about what the red flags are for you. Not all of us have a ton of experience managing. We haven’t developed that spidey sense for the red flags that we know don’t work for us. What are some of the signs for you that you need to start having some conversations around expectations and setting the stage?
“I am going to call out a couple of things first. In my world, for marketing, I’ve managed BDRs on my team as well as marketers. First, I want to say a couple of things. One, I think both good and bad. I’m an incredibly empathetic leader. This is a hard scenario for me. I think it’s hard. It’s never easy, but harder than most, and I’ve learned some hard lessons where I’ve probably let it linger a little longer than it should. I have also learned that in the end, it does no one any good.
“I think and I laugh at myself only because it’s like you have got to make it easier on everybody and I don’t take anyone’s livelihood including my own lightly. I think with sales it is a little bit less ambiguous since there are numbers that are tied to it and so the conversation, the red flags are easier to spot sooner and the conversation can be tied to them. It’s a very obvious thing. I’m just going to say that and then put it to the side. When you’re working with an individual where they do have measurement, they have OKRs, they’ve KPIs, but they are a little less subjective, that makes it a harder conversation.
“What I would say as a manager or a leader, if you can work in an environment where you have OKRs and when you are setting them quarterly and there’s measurement involved, you’re doing yourself a favor. Then you can set better parameters and that helps you create an environment where you can always come back to those and make those red flags a little bit easier to track.”
Yes.
“Those are the lessons that I have learned. As time has gone by, it makes it a little less squishy and those conversations much easier to bring up, follow and track as you have measurement involved. Back to the conversation at hand, let’s say we don’t have those measurements in hand. Some of the conversations and red flags that I start to see include disengagement, for sure. I like to call something like when you hire somebody and they’re very engaged, they are firing on all cylinders most of the time and now all of a sudden, they are not, something’s up.
“My first trigger is to do a genuine check-in. My staff knows me, without crossing boundaries. I want to check in with them and see if they are okay. I don’t want to pry. I don’t want to get into your personal life, but are you doing okay? Do you need some time off? Is there anything that you need help with? Everyone’s an adult. They don’t have to tell me anything, but I want to give them that chance.
“I think that some other red flags are that deadlines are getting missed. I think of an obvious red flag, which is never things that I want happen, but I’ve had where I was getting feedback from other departments. To me, it’s really hard because now or even on the team. If I’ve built the team that way, I try to, they work well together and they’re gelling. It’s become an issue since now that is hard for them. That’s actually a good one to point out. These are good examples of things that are occurring. My next step is we have a conversation, no nothing’s wrong, but the behaviors still need to happen. We sit down. I tend to have an explicit conversation about the examples of things I’m seeing. Unfortunately, this is the point where I do need to start a paper trail and have a conversation with HR to let them know I’m having the conversation. Then after I’ve had the conversation, I write a summary and email it. I always email or Slack and I will say this is what we have talked about.
“The conversation of PIPs or performance plans comes into play. Each company that I have worked for the last few years, it’s a pro/con. I’m not a fan of them. I feel that at the point of having a PIP, it rarely goes anywhere or it isn’t a positive at that point. I feel like you’re going to have the conversation, then this is where we’re at this point. Here are the other challenges that you’ve had, though, sadly, sometimes there’s a lack of support on the organization side since you now have an employee who isn’t working out, but you may not be getting support for a backfill on the other side. That becomes a real problem because if you’re being asked to do more with less, but you’re not getting support for a backfill, it can be a challenge and juggle. I’ve had scenarios where I second-guess myself. But unfortunately, at the end of the day, if the employee is just not performing, is the help you’re getting hurting you when all is said and done?”
I think the biggest struggle, especially for a new manager who doesn’t have a lot of experience screening people is when the performance isn’t as much of an issue as personality conflicts.
“Yes.”
It’s hard since when you don’t have a backfill and you need the work done, you can’t sacrifice your team’s morale and other people in the company. However, I run into scenarios where people don’t want to tell me what’s occurring when I’m not around. The person’s sneaky. They act out when no one is managing in the room. What I would say to folks is please do communicate when something is off, because it’s not just you. They’re impacting other people the same way. If you don’t feel comfortable speaking up for yourself, I hope you speak up for the people around you.
“You bring up a good point too. It amazes me. The humankind that happens and this awful feeling that people walk away at the end of the day because of colleagues that are one way to some folks and another way to other folks. We’ve all experienced it, oh, yeah, I don’t have time for that. This is a whole other ball game and it’s an awful feeling. It isn’t good. One thing, and I know we don’t have plenty of time, but a whole other session, we could talk about is inheriting those that are now on your team that aren’t a good fit for the culture, and you’re trying to build your team.”
Particularly if they have relationships with those founders, CEOs, or people. It is hard.
“Or they produce good work, but they’re, unfortunately, toxic for the team. That is another challenge of managing out. Here’s one thing I will say to close out when you’re dealing with a lot of these challenges is either trying to encourage your HR team or work within your leadership group to have peer meetings once a month to chat with each other about ways to manage these things. You can do it in a way where you’re leaving it as anonymous as possible. It is better if it’s handled and managed by HR. I’ve been in several organizations where we’ve had these peer-to-peer coffees once-in-a-month chats, but it does help and it’s cathartic because I do find that leadership doesn’t get enough of that kind of training.
“Once you get into that executive role, we’re left to our own devices to figure out these challenging conversations. Managing in and managing out is a challenging topic for sure. I think that you need that support and that guidance on how to handle those conversations, for sure.”
Yeah. It’s hard for everybody involved. Many times, when people start to check out and disengage. It isn’t a great fit. Maybe they hate working remotely and you only offer remote.
“There are a lot of factors and I’m coming to realize more and more as life goes on and jobs go on that it is every company and every corner of the world. It doesn’t matter what size and company it is. I’ve worked at great companies and have had amazing colleagues over the years. I’ve also worked at crazy companies and no one is immune. It is so eye-opening and validating to me and it is what it is. Every industry. I talk to friends, neighbors, colleagues, my mother, and my husband. It is everywhere.”
It is so funny since I’ve found that I am generalizing, but it tends to happen more with males and the colleagues on the executive team who are shocked that we need to have the sexual harassment training and all those other things since it does still happen. And bless their hearts, they’re shocked because they wouldn’t do that and I appreciate that, but it doesn’t mean it doesn’t ever happen.
“Yes. I know. I grew up in my early twenties during the 90s. So I think it’s changed a bit, but it still hasn’t changed.”
It’s different. I don’t think it’s definitely not as open as it used to be, but it still happens.
“No, there’s a great book I read a while ago and I’ll have to send it to you to share it with your viewers, but I do appreciate the women that have come before us and what they’ve been through very much for sure. Nevertheless, I hope that our daughters and our nieces and their nieces appreciate what has happened, but there are a lot of legs to go for sure.”
I have seen it inflicted on men too. Everyone can misbehave. Let’s touch briefly on managing in. We have talked about what doesn’t work. What are the red flags? I think that this ties well into what we’re looking for.
“This is just as hard. I have interviewed thousands of people over my career to this point and I can competently say that I can recognize the duds pretty quickly at this point. I won’t say who, I wouldn’t remember. I once conducted one bad interview. It was so bad that I kept going just out curiosity to see what else would come out of this gentleman’s mouth and I marveled, wow!”
I had somebody show up in a bathrobe. I should have just ended it.
“Yes. wow! I think, tell me a little bit about what you’re curious about. And then we can focus on that, so many different directions to go.”
I’m going to give you a behavior that drives me nuts in some leaders. They limit themselves by not hiring people who are smarter than them and feel threatened. Maybe we could talk a little bit about the benefits of knowing your own limitations.
“I am glad you said that. Our mutual friend Jen said something to me years ago that still sticks with me. She looks to hire people smarter than her and I’ve carried that with me forever, which I do. When I’m building a team, I can recognize where my weaknesses are. It is where the people that are going to help me build me and scale faster so that I can ensure my team is a complete running engine so that my entire organization is going to have what it needs. No one is perfect. I need to identify what my company needs, where our goals are. How are we going to get the company to where it is able to build fast and furious and just skyrocket out? So Bill’s smarter than us. I also want us to mesh well as we can together. Talking about managing out, we want to find a decent personality fit. Also, personality fit across the departments.
“The company that I’m doing fractional work for at the moment, I’m helping them with some interview processes and I interviewed a person the other day. Great fit, but probably wasn’t going to mesh well with some pretty critical key stakeholders. It didn’t end up working out. Those are critical pieces. I think you’re right in that capacity. You’ve got to think about all of these different moving parts and I don’t care if they’re smarter than me in those areas. I know what I do well and that’s why I’ve been hired for that piece. It is also my pet peeves of the things that I’ve been asked over time, really basic stuff. If you were a kitchen utensil, what kitchen utensil? Can we stop asking these things? I don’t need to know.
“We need to become realistic and just ask the question we’re trying to get to. There’s got to be a good fit for what you’re trying to understand from the team. The other piece I’m curious about is what your thoughts are. I am a big proponent of some test task, not for every role, but I hire many demand generation people, many ABM people folks. I’ve hired BDRs and do think that I need to understand how articulate you’re going to be. Show me how you think strategically. I cannot just take you on just on your word. I can certainly call referrals, but you’re getting me referrals based on people you know and that like you. So curious. What do you think about in terms of some kind of presentation, it doesn’t need to take up your whole life.”
But it depends on the role. My answer is going to be different just because of my background. I’ve been an administrator for marketing automation systems, CRMs, and customer success solutions.
“That’s a little different.”
Yes. When I’ve someone technical coming in, I’m going to ask them a series of questions. If they get irritable with me since they’re certified and don’t think they should have to answer, bye. I don’t care how good you are. But, if I feel like there are tests. I conduct them within the interview when it comes to sales and STRs, the presentation approach makes a lot of sense to me because you want to ensure that somebody’s comfortable, but it’s in the interview. I don’t like to take home homework that takes three days.
“No, I don’t even think it needs to be that. If I’m interviewing an Art Director or Designer, I don’t need them to do a test task. Show me your portfolio.”
Exactly!
“That’s different. It depends on the role, but I rethink that it’s all about meshing with the organization. I can tell you I am very big on the types of questions that they ask.”
Yes. It’s so important to have a bi-directional conversation.
“I need to understand that there’s a light bulb on, and I hope for those listening to this coming out as this is about me, but I’ve had people get on call with me. I’m the Head of Marketing and you’ve zero questions for me and that worries me because there’s no curiosity about the company, about our thought process, or what’s our messaging. You’re not thinking about anything that has to do with how we’re positioning ourselves or how we contribute to the rest of the organization to hit our numbers or any of those things.”
Just something as simple as, no thank you email. Send those.
“Why doesn’t anyone ever send a thank you email anymore.”
I know. I think the matter was the job market spoiled a lot of folks and got people really fast promotions and now people are offended that we point out experience and say, not the levels I thought you were coming in at. I’m sorry I see a lot of people getting offended. I understand it, but at the same time, it’s not going to be a no for me.”
I feel that that should never go away. Call me old-fashioned but that should just never go away. Come in with courtesy and respect. It’s just showing up on time. Send me a thank you note. Let me know ahead of time if you’re going to miss it.
“Yes. If you don’t know my email address. Send it to the HR person, or whoever your main contact was. I’ve got a lot of young folks in my personal circle who are at the internship age and I’m trying to help them, just giving them some pointers. I said, guys, I do this a lot. I’m letting you know do not forget things. It should go a long way.”
Well, office etiquette training is a thing now for a reason and it’s just what it is. Oh, dear, alright. Well, it’s another rabbit hole we could go down, but unfortunately, we’re out of time.
For more content on B2B marketing trends, listen to the full Revenue Marketing Report episode at the top of the article or anywhere you podcast.
