Justin Norris, host of the RevOps FM Podcast and Director of BDR and Marketing Operations at 360Learning, joins our host, Camela Thompson, Go-To-Market Thought Leader and B2B Insights Expert, in this episode of the Revenue Marketing Report. Justin shares his insights and how years of experience sitting at the executive table representing marketing changed his views about which numbers matter most and why. They also geeked out over why MQLs are evil, how to build a ritual around data, and why B2B ops and marketing should focus more on learning from one another.
I always get excited when operations folks get a peek into how a different department functions because you always learn something new about how people think. Before we dive into today's topic, has anything recently made you think, "Wow, that's why they ask for that!"
“There are two things that stand out to me. Hosting a podcast gives you a real understanding of content operations. You’ve got to record, edit, post the audio and video, cut clips, do show notes, and promo posts. It’s a lot more work than expected. To all the content people out there fighting the good fight, I salute you! I’ve learned so much. Understanding the intricacies of content creation and distribution has been eye-opening. It requires meticulous planning, coordination, and execution to ensure everything runs smoothly and the content reaches the audience effectively.
“The other thing is my expansive view of RevOps. It includes anyone in any go-to-market function and sometimes even beyond that. In revenue operations, you’re responsible for the overall health and effectiveness of these functions. You need to understand what great looks like in every area. I talk to sales leaders, individual contributors, marketing, customer success, and even some product people. That variety keeps it interesting for me, and I’ve learned a ton about all those different areas. Each department has its own challenges and successes, and understanding these nuances helps in creating a more cohesive and effective revenue strategy.”
It sounds like I’m not the only person drawn to revenue operations because the only constant is change. It’s a balance of systems, process, and human behavior, and you have to care about all of those pieces. This will influence our discussion on what marketing metrics should look like for an organization and what your CEO and CFO care about most. What drives the business should inform how you think about board reporting, executive reviews, and QBRs. Understanding the metrics that matter to different stakeholders is crucial for effective communication and alignment.
Let's talk about different audiences and the level of detail needed. This is something I struggled with early in my career.
“Great question, and it’s timely because my boss, our VP of Marketing, is on maternity leave. I’ve been sitting in on revenue executive meetings, reporting to our COO, CRO, and CEO. These meetings are very revenue-focused, with all the sales leaders.
“I’ve gone through enough iterations to have a tight story and set of metrics. It’s high-level and focuses on what actually impacts revenue. Pipeline by market is critical. If there are issues, people care. If things are good, you might get a pat on the back. Having a tight story and as few KPIs as possible has worked well for me. It’s about focusing on the metrics that truly matter and drive business decisions. High-level metrics that show the health of the pipeline and revenue impact are what executives are interested in. They need to quickly understand the state of the business and any potential issues that need addressing.”
Yes, it’s interesting. I had the same realization when I first walked into a boardroom. Fewer KPIs at that level, focusing on results, why it happened, and what you’ll do differently is key. It’s all about presenting a clear and concise narrative that executives can act upon.
“Exactly. For the C-suite, pipeline is the main KPI. We also talk about hand raisers – demo requests, contact requests – people who want to talk about buying something. This is more meaningful than leads or MQLs, which can vary greatly in quality. Hand raisers indicate a higher level of intent and are more likely to convert into sales opportunities.
“We focus on hand raiser pipeline by channel and target to pace. This story resonates with the executive team. They want to see that we are on track with our goals and understand where we might need to adjust our strategies. It’s important to have metrics that are directly tied to revenue outcomes, as this is what ultimately drives the business forward.”
Many marketing leaders don't keep a close eye on sales pipeline and bookings. Recognizing pipeline issues early in the quarter allows for tangible action. Have you seen focusing more on pipeline change behavior in the marketing team?
“I joined a rigorous organization with a lot of management consultant DNA. The CMO when I started was the former Head of Operations, so there was already discipline in place. We review KPIs regularly, and if a channel is behind, we respond on a week-by-week basis. This scrutiny turns minor setbacks into victories and major setbacks into minor ones. Regular monitoring and immediate action are crucial for maintaining a healthy pipeline and achieving revenue targets.
“We have a great dashboard that breaks down our performance by market and channel, showing achievements against targets. This helps us be more reactive and proactive. The dashboard allows us to quickly identify where we are falling behind and take corrective actions. It’s about having the right tools and processes in place to support continuous improvement.”
Comparing what you’ve described to other companies highlights how advanced your processes are. Have you seen companies applying more scrutiny now with budget cuts?
“It seems like the narrative is shifting towards fiscal responsibility. More companies are scrutinizing their budgets and marketing spends. However, not everyone realizes what they need or how to organize their data. Diagnostics are key when pipeline generation is behind. It’s important to have a structured approach to analyzing and addressing pipeline issues.
“We break down our pipeline plan by channel and market. If a channel is behind, we analyze funnel stages, conversion rates, and website interactions. For example, if SEM is behind, we check click rates, impression share, and bid strategy. Organic search performance reflects brand strength, social media activity, PR, and event participation. We use decision trees to diagnose and address issues in each channel. This structured approach ensures that we can quickly identify and resolve any problems.”
It's interesting because Google’s algorithm changes can impact organic search. Let's talk about MQLs versus hand raisers. Why focus on hand raisers?
“Our legacy MQL definition is based on firmographic and demographic data, which I don’t love. We focus on hand raisers because they show higher intent. Splitting out hand raisers helps us understand pipeline health better.
“As a consultant, it’s easy to advocate for best practices. But when you’re responsible for change management, you prioritize what makes the most impact. Hand raisers are the best predictor of pipeline health, which is why we focus on them. The quality of leads is more important than the quantity, and hand raisers represent leads with a higher likelihood of conversion.”
It’s about getting credit for each touch and working closely with sales. What's the most effective path for converting opportunities?
“Our structure is very BDR-focused. BDRs handle qualification before opportunities reach sales. This preserves sales team time but may make them less hungry for cold outreach. We’re still figuring out nurturing and evolving our BDR focus.
“We’re leaning into thought leadership, creating engaging content from trusted voices. This ‘sub-stackation of nurture’ approach is proving effective. It’s about building trust and providing valuable insights. People value content from credible sources, and leveraging thought leaders within the organization helps build stronger relationships with potential customers.”
For smaller companies, founder hesitation about what if key people leave is a concern. However, we need to focus on what the business cares about at the executive level. Different metrics are critical at different levels.
“It’s about telling the right story at each level. For the C-suite, it’s pipeline health. For marketing leadership, it’s channel-specific metrics. For operational meetings, it’s lead flow and quality. Each level requires relevant KPIs to run their part of the business effectively.
“As a marketing ops leader, you need to be plugged into the business side. Know your metrics and be accountable. View yourself as a thought partner to your marketing leader, backing them up and adding value. This maturity boosts your career and changes your project priorities. Being business-oriented and understanding the broader impact of your work is crucial for career growth.”
Absolutely. Marketing is becoming more critical to business health and scale. Customer success is also on the rise. We can’t afford to operate in silos anymore.
“Marketing must align with sales and care about the same goals. Data can’t be ignored, and defining qualified leads in a silo doesn’t work. It’s essential to have a holistic view of the entire revenue process and ensure alignment across all functions.
“We need regular routines and rituals to review data. Having these rituals, like regular meetings, ensures scrutiny and accountability. It helps us respond quickly and effectively to any issues. Regular data reviews help maintain focus and ensure that everyone is aligned with the business goals.”
If you look at your numbers quarterly, it’s too late. Regular, public data reviews are essential. Recent research shows many marketers ignore analytics and go by gut. We need to move beyond intuitive marketing.
“Agreed. AI can help with pattern matching and initial analysis, saving time. While it can’t fully understand human emotion, it excels at observing patterns. AI as a copilot for analysis is a promising use case. It can help identify trends and anomalies that might be missed by humans.”
AI’s impact on analyzing unstructured qualitative data is exciting. For example, sales call recordings and competitive keyword analysis could be game-changers.
“Focusing on customer insights and qualitative data is crucial. AI can mine this data for common pain points. Tools like Gong can help, though they’re still evolving. Using AI for time savings while maintaining human oversight is the future. AI can provide initial insights, but human interpretation and decision-making are still essential.”
Marketing operators can learn from marketing and vice versa. It’s about lifting our heads, reading the room, and understanding each other’s needs.
“100%. Marketing must be seen as a mature, legitimate business function. Aligning with sales and caring about the same goals is essential. Building strong cross-functional relationships is key to driving business success.”
Justin, thank you so much for being on the show! It’s always a pleasure to geek out with you.
For more content on B2B marketing trends, listen to the full Revenue Marketing Report episode at the top of the article or anywhere you podcast.
